The Annual Staying vs Leaving Thread

[Joneslab]

There've been some crazy improvements with some of these guys.

The twins get bashed, but look at what kinds of defenders they were as freshmen to when they were sophomores. Night and day. They couldn't guard me when they got here; both of them improved dramatically by their sophomore year. That is literally never mentioned...but it should be.

WCS--guy went from a project to an All-American. Even Murray this year went from an undisciplined player to somebody who was taking good shots and helping the team in virtually all facets.

Cal has had some busts. Poythress has to stand at the top of the list. But when a guy gets to 20 years old, that's who he is. There are some exceptions (Buddy Hield), but you can't remake guys from scratch if they come in with mental blocks the way Poythress seemed to. These coaches don't have magic wands.

I think the development has been fine.

[Joneslab]

Terrence Jones and Doron Lamb also made hellish improvements.

Jones went from a guy who needed the ball virtually all the time to a mature niche player as a sophomore. That guy by the end of his sophomore season would just hunt rebounds, which is exactly what we needed him to be on that team.

Doron was horrendously lazy. Capital-L lazy. I've heard people say that there may've never been a worse practice player than Lamb his freshman year. By his sophomore year, he was a crucial piece of the puzzle on a title team.

Derek Willis...Derek's family, Cal, and JWORLD were probably the only people on planet Earth who thought he could contribute on this past team. And yet there he was.

[KevinHall]

As much as I disagree with Cal about some things, he does improve his players quite a bit. Obviously a couple haven't but nearly all do. That is a mark of how good of a coach he is. His players and team improves as the season goes along. His only team that didn't improve at UK was 2013. That had much to do with Noel's injury than anything else IMO.

[justford]

As long as Cal is our coach it is wash, rinse, repeat. New faces each year.

[Blue Heaven]

This has to be the most off based observation ever, IMO. Who hasn't developed under Cal? Marcus Lee? wohoo. You say the Harrisons, but Andrew definitely improved his second year.

He has most of his players for 6 months. Some for 2 seasons but not many. So just how much development are you expecting in 2 years? The same as let's say, Darnell Valentime over 4? Really?

People forget what he did with Harrellson. How did KAT look when he left compared to when he arrived? Better? You bet. Good enough to be #1, but he sure did not look that way early in the season. You don't think WCS developed at all in his time here? You think Patterson did not get that big contract because Cal worked with him to expand his game to the outside more?

Don't mean to sound angry and Cal certainly has his faults, but player development is simply a straw man argument. Give Cal 3-4 years with these guys like most coaches get and then we will talk.

We will just have to agree to disagree. It is not so much that thise STUDS got better, it is that Cal sorta realized what he had and what would be better suited for the good of the team. All thise studs had talent all along. They just never played against college guys. The one guy who to me who developed more than any other Cal player was Jorts. Possibly add Darius in there as well.

[Blue Heaven]

And I agree with you about what if Cal had 3-4 years like most other coaches. But thwn I think about Alex. Great man Alex, but he regressed in his time here. And I dont necessarily think Willie got that much better. He was always running up the floor and dunking and blocking shots. He developed a decent offensive game his last year, but i wouldnt contribute it to Cal.

[Joneslab]

And I agree with you about what if Cal had 3-4 years like most other coaches. But thwn I think about Alex. Great man Alex, but he regressed in his time here. And I dont necessarily think Willie got that much better. He was always running up the floor and dunking and blocking shots. He developed a decent offensive game his last year, but i wouldnt contribute it to Cal.

Willie went from a guy averaging about 8 points and a couple of rebounds a game to a consensus first-team All-American, a finalist for the Naismith, and the sixth pick in the NBA Draft.

WCS was a FREAK of a defender. Total freak. The defensive anchor of arguably the best team any of us ever saw. He should in no way be mentioned with Alex Poythress and I'd remind you what he looked like as a freshman: a project.

Whether his growth can be fully credited to Cal or his staff is debatable, but if we're going to put Alex Poythress in the "he didn't develop" camp, it's only fair to give at least some credit to the coaching staff for a guy like WCS.

And more than Cal, I think Kenny Payne should get most of the credit for these big men.

[Joneslab]

WCS was on a level of somebody like Skal as a freshman. Maybe a little stronger; not nearly the offensive game. About the same kind of instincts because neither of them had played a lot of basketball.

To imagine Skal as an All-American is unfathomable. That's the kind of growth WCS made in two years. There were games that Willie Cauley-Stein scored six points and completely dominated.

That team could've taken this past Kentucky team and beat them by 25 points. It would have ripped through this entire field, IMO, with very little problem. I think the loss to Wisconsin unfortunately dilutes what it is we witnessed with that bunch.

We'll never see anything like it again.

[justford]

It's all about winning championships and that will never change. The number of victories doesn't matter just the championships. The way it has been and will always be. Fans don't care about who comes, goes or stays as long as championships are won. Cal is all about the players making a better life for themselves and their families. Hard to argue with that goal. If championships come along with that, it is icing on the cake.

[Blue Heaven]

Willie went from a guy averaging about 8 points and a couple of rebounds a game to a consensus first-team All-American, a finalist for the Naismith, and the sixth pick in the NBA Draft.

WCS was a FREAK of a defender. Total freak. The defensive anchor of arguably the best team any of us ever saw. He should in no way be mentioned with Alex Poythress and I'd remind you what he looked like as a freshman: a project.

Whether his growth can be fully credited to Cal or his staff is debatable, but if we're going to put Alex Poythress in the "he didn't develop" camp, it's only fair to give at least some credit to the coaching staff for a guy like WCS.

And more than Cal, I think Kenny Payne should get most of the credit for these big men.

But he didn't explode until we had the team we had last year. It was less attention that had to be paid to him because the whole team was a monster. I am not saying I disliked WCS. I loved him. But let's be realistic. Had he had the guys around him last year that he had in 2014, he probably isn't drafted as high. His game did not change one bit. It helped him having a beast like Townes and Lyles in there with him. If last years team coulda beat this years by 25, they woulda smoked the 2014 by 35. Unreal talent last year.

[Joneslab]

His game did not change one bit.

That's absolutely false.

We can argue that he was made better because of the team, but that's a useless argument. I've seen it made about hundreds of guys over the years. Saw it made on this board just a couple of weeks ago about none other than Jamal Murray.

It's the chicken or the egg. Whether he would've gotten as good as he did defensively with a more average team around him is like asking whether MKG would've been as good as he was without Davis. Or if Delk would've been as good as he was without the '96 team around him. And so on and so on. It's impossible to answer a question like that.

But if you don't think he changed from his freshman year, you need to go back and watch him as a freshman.

He was a project. He never really changed offensively. But he became kind of like a Chris Lofton figure in reverse: he could control games on defense without doing hardly anything offensively.

He couldn't control anything as a freshman. He was an energy guy, an athlete. As a junior he was a total animal and could lock down myriad kinds of players all over the court.

[Blue Heaven]

I totally agree about the defense. I was speaking in terms of his offense I guess I did a bad job in stating that. Willie was one of the best defenders I have seen at Kentucky.

[Ratt]

i think there is something, but i don't think it will override him leaving. Kind of the ol' one gummy bear for positive and one for negative thing, and him leaving will outweigh staying, imo. I saw someone on facebook say he was 50/50 but i don't believe it. What could he possibly accomplish by coming back? His stock won't get any higher, he won't put up better numbers because he wouldn't be playing 35 minutes a game, and he can't get any better than first team aa. I am sure he wants to win a title, i am sure the chances of 40-0 (which would be very good if him and briscoe return imo) are on his mind, and there's no doubt he wants every record in the books for uk and college. That's just how competitive he is. But, in order for the records he would have to play two more years which ain't happening. So, it all comes down to his desire to win a title. Other than that he has absolutely nothing to prove.

If it were me? Why not come back? Everyone says the risk of injury. I get that, but at the same time with the developments of medicine and therapy a torn acl, broken leg, etc keep you out six months tops. When you look at nerlens, kevin ware, adrian peterson, robbie hummel from purdue, and all the other athletes who have had serious injuries you see a trend of them coming back just as good. He also has a close friend in poythress who can verify that a torn acl doesn't mean the end of a career.

Some say you can always go back to school. You can, but how many do after they have that much money coming in?

I say go back to school, finish your degree, enjoy your youth, and make something special happen. The money will be there. You can't go back to being a kid and enjoying your college years. I know that is easy for me to say because i don't have that much money looking me in the eyes, but i honestly think that's what i would do.

no one is going 40-0 --- please stop saying that.

[Ratt]

Couple things:

Where are you guys pulling that players don't improve after 20 years old at? That has the be the most stupid comment ever... Almost every player improves past 20... Same to be said that most every college player is better at the end of their career than when they came in.


As for the development debate - well that's hard to argue about because you just never know. We're not there in practices, we don't see what all is happening. I do think Cal develop players just like most coaches do with their players. But you can't really gauge how much it is coaching, how much it is the player, or just the natural improvement from someone as they get older and practice more and hone their craft more. I love WCS - LOVE HIM... But his offensive game didn't improve greatly at all. But then again, half the time, they simply would never get him the ball on the block. Skal is more skilled offensively than WCS or at this stage in their career. It's not that he's great but that little jump hook off the right block is pretty sweet... However, when Skal started playing better, Cal never went to that. It was more about 3 guys standing around - Murray or Ulis dribbling way too much and the other one trying to run off a screen.

Someone stated it above very, very well... Cal is more about the kids. About getting the kids to the next level and for them to start their careers and a better life. Winning and Championships are just a by product of that. I personally think there are much better x and o guys out there that given the talent that Cal has gotten, would probably have as much success and possibly more but guess what - we will never know that and who cares. I used to hate Cal. But his brash, arrogant, tell it like he sees it attitude, I've grown to really like him. I just wished he would work on his offensive game plans some and make adjustments when needed. But as a coach myself, sometimes that's easier said than done as well.

Overall though and back to the thread --- Ulis is gone and it's sad. I'm not sure of a more liked UK player. It's been a long time. I know Macy was the cats meow to fans. Mash was the Bomb and still my favorite probably overall. But man, that little guy brought excitement and fun to this season. Murray is gone. Murray is your next star in the NBA. In 5 years, be ready. Skal - I don't see him panning out at the next level. He'll get drafted based on pure potential and may be a serviceable backup for a while. I don't see him doing much else. Briscoe - I think stays. I like him and this guy is a beast in the paint for a guard. I don't see him playing at the next level - D league maybe. A guard that simply can not shoot is not playing at the next level. I'm still baffled that one of the best guards coming out of high school simply can not hit a 15-foot jump shot. IF Lee goes - who cares. I like him but he's really nothing.

[teamchemistry15]

no one is going 40-0 --- please stop saying that.

I said there would be a good chance, not that it was a for sure thing. I will also say whatever I please. That is the beauty of an Internet message board. I am free to give my opinion, you are free to disagree. If you choose to do so I would prefer you do it in a respectful manner instead of coming on here and telling people to stop saying things and that comments are stupid like in your next post.