Smith or Calipari

[SportsFan]

The obvious answer is Cal just based on the three additional FFs and one additional runner-up.

You can not like the guy personally or think his last few years tainted his legacy, but his overall body of work is much stronger than Tubby's. The only real edge Tubby has is his worst seasons aren't nearly as bad as Cal's worst seasons. Tubby never missed the tournament, but also never got back to the FF after his first year. Cal went to the FF 4 times in in 5 years, but also missed the tournament twice and had a losing season.

Don't forget, Cal also didn't make it back to the Final Four his last 9 years (after 2015) as Kentucky's coach....the exact same stretch that Tubby didn't make it back after winning it all in '98.

Had Cal left for UCLA like he should have in 2019, I wouldn't have nearly the bad feelings towards him and I doubt many others in the fan base would either. I'm not sure whether to blame Cal for overstaying his welcome or completely blast Mitch Barnhardt for giving him that ridiculous "lifetime contract" in 2019. They both deserve their fair share of the blame.

[KentuckyWild2020]

Do I miss dribble dribble dribble dribble, dribble dribble dribble, take a bad shot with 2 seconds left on the shot clock?? No


Do I miss AAU street And One garbage straight trash junk basketball? No


In my lifetime the only coach I ever really felt good with on the sidelines was Pitino which is why POPE ( I was initially on the fence at first) is absolutely the right fit right choice for Kentucky. We get a coach taught by Rick, ex NBA player, ex UK alum and Champion, analytical guru, down to earth relatable person (low ego), all of the above plus he actually is greatful and thankful to be here, wants to be here...


Time will tell but Pope may have gave Mitch a free pass on that lifetime contract, can thank Cal for letting us off the hook on that...

[KYWILDCAT41035]

I did. I did.

Ten Loss Tubby!!! lol

What was Cal his last 7-8 years here....... TLC...... Don't get me wrong Tubby had some not so UK standard years too but that 9-16, the NIT year, losing to ST Peters and Oakland in the tournament as a 2 seed and a 3 seed in the 1st round, losing to Robert Morris , Richmond, Kansas State (2) , Evansville, UNC Wilmington, and I'm sure I missed someone. This is the reason I give a slight edge to Tubby he just never had the worst record in school history and never took us too the NIT tournament. I did want him gone too if I'm being honest but wanted Cal gone too.

[SportsFan]

What was Cal his last 7-8 years here....... TLC...... Don't get me wrong Tubby had some not so UK standard years too but that 9-16, the NIT year, losing to ST Peters and Oakland in the tournament as a 2 seed and a 3 seed in the 1st round, losing to Robert Morris , Richmond, Kansas State (2) , Evansville, UNC Wilmington, and I'm sure I missed someone. This is the reason I give a slight edge to Tubby he just never had the worst record in school history and never took us too the NIT tournament. I did want him gone too if I'm being honest but wanted Cal gone too.

Cal actually had more ten-loss seasons (6) than Tubby (5). Of course, he coached 5 years longer....but still.

Remarkably, their winning percentage was nearly identical.


Tubby 263-83 (.760) 5 ten loss seasons

Cal 410-123 (.769) 6 ten loss seasons

And they both won one national championship...but Cal's tenure was hotter and brighter (the first 6 years), but also a bit worse in a lot of ways (the last 5 years)

[KentuckyWild2020]

The NBA ruined Calipari in my opinion. I thought he was a much better X's and O's coach pre game planner prior to his stint with the NETS. Did it make him lazy, I don't know. Standing on the sidelines as a PRO coach I think he realized TALENT wins game and took the easy route, recruit the best talent, let it work itself out on it's own and just manage the ego's.


What would Tubby Smith's UK resume look like had he been able to recruit like Calipari? Could he manage the EGO's or was it my way or the highway stubbornness trying to prove a point to whoever?

Back to Mark Pope. Could he actually be the best of both worlds?

I appreciate both Tubby and Calipari but a the same time, would have preferred MR. P to stay on board the whole time at Kentucky. Tubby who? Calipari who?? If Rick stayed Tubby and Cal where still second hand coaches in my opinion...

[davtay]

We get a coach taught by Rick

Not picking on you, but I see this quoted a lot and I'm not sure it is accurate. Coach Pope played for Pitino for two years, that is it. He played for many others in the NBA. He learned the ropes of coaching starting under Mark Fox. Everyone mistakenly states that he learned to coach under Rick, but he has as much time with Rick as Roderick Rhodes coaching....none. I'm not saying he didn't learn anything playing under Pitino, but many have played for Pitino and many have coached under him, but Coach Pope isn't one.

I've also seen several say that they want Coach Pope to press and play the style that Coach Pitino played while at UK...but Pitino doesn't now and hasn't since he left here. Just don't want to see unnecessary pressure put on Coach Pope by some thinking that it is going to be the style of the 90s. Afraid that style hasn't been seen since.

[SportsFan]

The NBA ruined Calipari in my opinion. I thought he was a much better X's and O's coach pre game planner prior to his stint with the NETS. Did it make him lazy, I don't know. Standing on the sidelines as a PRO coach I think he realized TALENT wins game and took the easy route, recruit the best talent, let it work itself out on it's own and just manage the ego's.

I think you're right about this. While he did a good job at Memphis with talent similar to what he had at UMASS, I've often thought that Cal wanted to take the lazy route, and being the coach at Kentucky....where the name brand, the reputation, the history, the school facilities, boosters, alumni and fan base...all allowed him to do that. He didn't want the grind of having to coach up young mid-tier talent....he wanted the "best of the best" so that he could rely on talent to win. I think you're absolutely right about that.

I appreciate both Tubby and Calipari but a the same time, would have preferred MR. P to stay on board the whole time at Kentucky. Tubby who? Calipari who?? If Rick stayed Tubby and Cal where still second hand coaches in my opinion...

I also agree on Pitino. I've been a Kentucky fan since around 1976 or '77, when I was around 9 or 10 years old. I've followed UK through the Hall, Sutton, Pitino, Tubby, Billy Clyde, Cal and now Pope years. And throughout the past nearly 5 decades, Rick Pitino has always been my favorite Kentucky coach. The 90s were just such a magical time period to be a Kentucky fan. That entire decade was awesome for UK fans. Even a long time friend of mine who I've known since the early 80s who has always been a Louisville Cardinals fan was "willing to give it a try". I remember him trying real hard to be a Kentucky fan. It didn't last long, but because of Kentucky's dominance he was actually willing to give it a try! ?

[KYWILDCAT41035]

I think you're right about this. While he did a good job at Memphis with talent similar to what he had at UMASS, I've often thought that Cal wanted to take the lazy route, and being the coach at Kentucky....where the name brand, the reputation, the history, the school facilities, boosters, alumni and fan base...all allowed him to do that. He didn't want the grind of having to coach up young mid-tier talent....he wanted the "best of the best" so that he could rely on talent to win. I think you're absolutely right about that.




I also agree on Pitino. I've been a Kentucky fan since around 1976 or '77, when I was around 9 or 10 years old. I've followed UK through the Hall, Sutton, Pitino, Tubby, Billy Clyde, Cal and now Pope years. And throughout the past nearly 5 decades, Rick Pitino has always been my favorite Kentucky coach. The 90s were just such a magical time period to be a Kentucky fan. That entire decade was awesome for UK fans. Even a long time friend of mine who I've known since the early 80s who has always been a Louisville Cardinals fan was "willing to give it a try". I remember him trying real hard to be a Kentucky fan. It didn't last long, but because of Kentucky's dominance he was actually willing to give it a try! ?

This is me with me being 45 Hall and Sutton I was real young so the coaches I really remember are Pitino , Smith, BCG, Cal and now Pope. Pitino by far is the best coach coach of my lifetime to this point he had everything going right for UK. He came into a mess and left the program on the mountain top firing on all cylinders. The rest of the coaches all came into a mess ( minus Smith) thanks to the previous coach getting fat and lazy. Pope it's yet to be seen on how he's going to do I mean 1st season sweet 16 with a whole new team. I'll wait to pass judgement on how he does after this season or next but so far he seems like he's trending in the right direction.

[KYJeff1]

I never had a coach anger me as much as Cal did his last 4 years.
yeah, the first 6 years were phenomenal. but he ended up getting lazy, UK was no longer a priority and he turned on the fans. He made fun of us in press conferences while he was busy orchestrating the worst season in UK history and 2 of the worst NCAAT losses in UK history.
he had 3 NBA talents on that 2021 team and couldn't even beat Richmond at home.
Then, he used Dontae Allen as the rope in his tug of war with the fans and totally benched him just to show the BBN who the boss was.
in 2024, it was proven what his best lineup was, but he refused to play it. He made promises to bad players and didn't care about the consequences. He lost 10 games with that roster and couldn't even beat Oakland. He should be embarrassed. but he's not.
You don't put yourself, or individual players above this program, Cal did that. He turned UK into an NBA farm system. Tubby never did that. So for that, give me Tubby. Those final 4s were great, but Cal's actions and results at the back end of his tenure, put a big black cloud over my feelings toward him. F that guy.

[KentuckyWild2020]

Not picking on you, but I see this quoted a lot and I'm not sure it is accurate. Coach Pope played for Pitino for two years, that is it. He played for many others in the NBA. He learned the ropes of coaching starting under Mark Fox. Everyone mistakenly states that he learned to coach under Rick, but he has as much time with Rick as Roderick Rhodes coaching....none. I'm not saying he didn't learn anything playing under Pitino, but many have played for Pitino and many have coached under him, but Coach Pope isn't one.

I've also seen several say that they want Coach Pope to press and play the style that Coach Pitino played while at UK...but Pitino doesn't now and hasn't since he left here. Just don't want to see unnecessary pressure put on Coach Pope by some thinking that it is going to be the style of the 90s. Afraid that style hasn't been seen since.

Not picking on you but POPE openly admits that Pitino set the tone and laid the foundation for what he is today.

He don't run trap and press for 40 minutes but he absolutely learned that MAMBA mentality from Pitino...

The 40 minutes of hell of basketball played out and wonder why?? Did it not work anymore, was to many other coaches out there trying to mimic it and just didn't know how to teach it??

Many started to think that running 40 minutes caused injuries etc. Still, Donovan managed to win two back to back titles.

Rule changes, more 3 point shots and long rebounds, times have changed. I don't expect Pope to play 40 minutes but still would not surprise me if he doesn't use at times, especially with a roster of 12 plus good players.

Still, imagine asking Richie Farmer Feldhaus or Pelphrey to run through a wall for you today. Hell, we couldn't even keep homegrown Travis Perry on the team in this modern day social media age that we live. Aint nobody running through a wall these days for a coach.

[KentuckyWild2020]

I think you're right about this. While he did a good job at Memphis with talent similar to what he had at UMASS, I've often thought that Cal wanted to take the lazy route, and being the coach at Kentucky....where the name brand, the reputation, the history, the school facilities, boosters, alumni and fan base...all allowed him to do that. He didn't want the grind of having to coach up young mid-tier talent....he wanted the "best of the best" so that he could rely on talent to win. I think you're absolutely right about that.




I also agree on Pitino. I've been a Kentucky fan since around 1976 or '77, when I was around 9 or 10 years old. I've followed UK through the Hall, Sutton, Pitino, Tubby, Billy Clyde, Cal and now Pope years. And throughout the past nearly 5 decades, Rick Pitino has always been my favorite Kentucky coach. The 90s were just such a magical time period to be a Kentucky fan. That entire decade was awesome for UK fans. Even a long time friend of mine who I've known since the early 80s who has always been a Louisville Cardinals fan was "willing to give it a try". I remember him trying real hard to be a Kentucky fan. It didn't last long, but because of Kentucky's dominance he was actually willing to give it a try! ?

Don't want to be a YES man but I agree brother BlueNWhite lol lol..

The whole Pitino "what if" is forever lore in the history of Kentucky basketball.

Sure, he was a prick up in Lexington at times but the one thing he did that I think we can all agree on is that he MADE US ALL BELIEVE. It didn't matter that we didn't have the top class or this or that, you knew that when you played Kentucky you had better bring the A game or you was getting beat...

Towards the end he started getting the Mercer's and Walkers of the world. Not just one good player (Mashburn) but multiples on a year to year. Still think that Avery Brand Maggette and a few others was coming to Kentucky. T Mac, Dirk , others names and rumors have been out there for years.

I like Rick but wanted Donovan prior to Tubby. I suppose two years in at Marshall wasn't enough for Rick to endorse Billy D. I think Billy D has held a grudge over all that for years now. He was Rick's protege and UK and Rick pissed on him way back when lol lol lol....

[SportsFan]

I never had a coach anger me as much as Cal did his last 4 years.
yeah, the first 6 years were phenomenal. but he ended up getting lazy, UK was no longer a priority and he turned on the fans. He made fun of us in press conferences while he was busy orchestrating the worst season in UK history and 2 of the worst NCAAT losses in UK history.
he had 3 NBA talents on that 2021 team and couldn't even beat Richmond at home.
Then, he used Dontae Allen as the rope in his tug of war with the fans and totally benched him just to show the BBN who the boss was.
in 2024, it was proven what his best lineup was, but he refused to play it. He made promises to bad players and didn't care about the consequences. He lost 10 games with that roster and couldn't even beat Oakland. He should be embarrassed. but he's not.
You don't put yourself, or individual players above this program, Cal did that. He turned UK into an NBA farm system. Tubby never did that. So for that, give me Tubby. Those final 4s were great, but Cal's actions and results at the back end of his tenure, put a big black cloud over my feelings toward him. F that guy.

You and me both, brother.

Truth be told, Cal "kind of" lost me with that 2015 loss to Wisconsin. I say "kind of" because I didn't want to be "that guy"....the guy who 'overreacted', and then Cal turns around and wins a title 2 out of the next 3 years. No, I wanted to give him a chance to redeem himself...but make no mistake, we lost that game because Bo Ryan out-coached John Calipari. Kentucky had way more talent, and way more depth. But we were out-coached. Bad in-game decisions, especially regarding personnel, was the reason we lost that game. It wasn't that Wisconsin played a better game, it's that they were coached better than we were.

That was the end of Cal's magical 6 year run. The next 4 (2016 - 2019) was his transitional period....of going from Adolph Rupp status....to above average but more like Tubby Smith status. He had good teams, he had good players, he had good win-loss records and he had highly ranked and seeded teams. But he extended his streak of choking in March Madness. That 2015 loss to Wisconsin was the last time Cal would ever reach a Final Four at Kentucky.

So while I was seeing the decline....what was Mitch Barnhardt seeing??? I have no idea, because after the 2019 season ended with an Elite 8 loss to Bruce Pearl and Auburn....a team that Kentucky had beaten twice in the regular season...once at Auburn and the other time by nearly 30 in Lexington....Mitch decides to give Calipari a "lifetime contract". I knew it was the absolute dumbest thing possible at the time.... and Cal spent the last 5 years he was in Lexington proving it.

Had John Calipari not had those first 6 years of magic, and 4 pretty good follow up transitional years...we wouldn't have been forced to witness his last 5 of borderline ineptitude. But those last 5 rival the Billy Clyde years. You pointed out very well how he basically gave the fans a middle finger and said "I'm a God here, I'll do as I please". He really didn't care about the program or the history and tradition....he was appeasing his own ego with a "look how many first round draft picks I've put in the NBA" attitude. But Cal, being ever the slick BS-ing salesman.... would frame it as "look at the generational wealth being created. Look at all the future generations of families being lifted up out of poverty...." blah, blah, blah. He didn't care about that, but he knew that was the only way he could sell it and continue doing it. Because he wasn't going to change. Nobody was going to tell him how he needed to run his program.

Like you and countless others, I am SO glad that he is (finally) gone.

[KYJeff1]

You and me both, brother.

Truth be told, Cal "kind of" lost me with that 2015 loss to Wisconsin. I say "kind of" because I didn't want to be "that guy"....the guy who 'overreacted', and then Cal turns around and wins a title 2 out of the next 3 years. No, I wanted to give him a chance to redeem himself...but make no mistake, we lost that game because Bo Ryan out-coached John Calipari. Kentucky had way more talent, and way more depth. But we were out-coached. Bad in-game decisions, especially regarding personnel, was the reason we lost that game. It wasn't that Wisconsin played a better game, it's that they were coached better than we were.

That was the end of Cal's magical 6 year run. The next 4 (2016 - 2019) was his transitional period....of going from Adolph Rupp status....to above average but more like Tubby Smith status. He had good teams, he had good players, he had good win-loss records and he had highly ranked and seeded teams. But he extended his streak of choking in March Madness. That 2015 loss to Wisconsin was the last time Cal would ever reach a Final Four at Kentucky.

So while I was seeing the decline....what was Mitch Barnhardt seeing??? I have no idea, because after the 2019 season ended with an Elite 8 loss to Bruce Pearl and Auburn....a team that Kentucky had beaten twice in the regular season...once at Auburn and the other time by nearly 30 in Lexington....Mitch decides to give Calipari a "lifetime contract". I knew it was the absolute dumbest thing possible at the time.... and Cal spent the last 5 years he was in Lexington proving it.

Had John Calipari not had those first 6 years of magic, and 4 pretty good follow up transitional years...we wouldn't have been forced to witness his last 5 of borderline ineptitude. But those last 5 rival the Billy Clyde years. You pointed out very well how he basically gave the fans a middle finger and said "I'm a God here, I'll do as I please". He really didn't care about the program or the history and tradition....he was appeasing his own ego with a "look how many first round draft picks I've put in the NBA" attitude. But Cal, being ever the slick BS-ing salesman.... would frame it as "look at the generational wealth being created. Look at all the future generations of families being lifted up out of poverty...." blah, blah, blah. He didn't care about that, but he knew that was the only way he could sell it and continue doing it. Because he wasn't going to change. Nobody was going to tell him how he needed to run his program.

Like you and countless others, I am SO glad that he is (finally) gone.

I was a massive Cal fan. I defended him and I made excuses for his shortcomings. I was confused by the loss to Wva in 2010, but he was motivated and he redeemed himself the next few years.
but then he changed. He even said he was going to change. After the 2012 title, he said He told Ellen "we got that out of the way. now let's make it about the kids" . Well, he did just that, but was able to continue to hide it behind the great talent he was getting. Until he started getting owned on the recruiting trail and had to settle for lower rated kids that had serious flaws.
truth is, who did he help? The ones that got drafted, were getting drafted no matter where they went to school and look at how much better these guys were immediately after they left.
The guys that needed his help, like Dontaei Allen, were afterthoughts. Parked on the bench and told to earn their time.
then Schaedon Sharpe happened. What a bunch of crap that was.
I hated admitting that Cal was no longer the guy I highly respected, but I had to be honest and see him for what he was. Eventually, he made it very easy to hate him.
and Mitch...ugh. that guy needs to leave the room when contracts are negotiated. My goodness, he didn't learn his lesson with the deal he gave Cal, he turned around and doubled down when he gave Stoops a lifetime deal. I mean, how stupid can you be? He put UK in an awful position in both cases. thank God John Tyson was just a little dumber than Mitch.

[KYJeff1]

Not picking on you but POPE openly admits that Pitino set the tone and laid the foundation for what he is today.

He don't run trap and press for 40 minutes but he absolutely learned that MAMBA mentality from Pitino...

The 40 minutes of hell of basketball played out and wonder why?? Did it not work anymore, was to many other coaches out there trying to mimic it and just didn't know how to teach it??

Many started to think that running 40 minutes caused injuries etc. Still, Donovan managed to win two back to back titles.

Rule changes, more 3 point shots and long rebounds, times have changed. I don't expect Pope to play 40 minutes but still would not surprise me if he doesn't use at times, especially with a roster of 12 plus good players.

Still, imagine asking Richie Farmer Feldhaus or Pelphrey to run through a wall for you today. Hell, we couldn't even keep homegrown Travis Perry on the team in this modern day social media age that we live. Aint nobody running through a wall these days for a coach.

I think the press style defense went the way of the dinosaur because the game evolved to the point where even guards on bad teams can easily break any press and push ahead for easy buckets.
the last team that tried it was West Virginia, but Huggins trashed it because they were getting shredded.
it was fun when Pitino did it. Those UK teams used to smother the heck out of everyone they played.
I would love it if Pope found a way to do it effectively though. Would be fun with a deep team like this one.

[blueheretic]

You and me both, brother.

Truth be told, Cal "kind of" lost me with that 2015 loss to Wisconsin. I say "kind of" because I didn't want to be "that guy".....

I was that guy. Loudly that guy.

It was definitely not an overreaction, though, as time has proven.

I knew when Bo Ryan reached in and ripped out what remained of his heart that Calipari was finished after that loss.