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  • Spiritof96
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2014
    • 13503

    #61
    It is inarguable that BLM the organization has its philosophical roots in Marxism. That fact, in and of itself makes the movement problematic. Cal is fond of admonishing his players to know who, why, and how they are being used by those with a message. He should have taken his own advice.

    As many posters have said in this thread, the BLM slogan resonates with them for what they understand it to mean. In the political forum, that resonating message seems to outweigh any concerns about the org. I presume most of those kneeling, bowing, and taking to the streets are reacting to the felt need to "take action" when they see clear misdeeds on the part of the police, but the general lack of interest in vetting BLM the organization is of significant concern to me.

    Lastly, anyone who cares to look can find the data on the number of police shootings per year. It can be sorted a variety of ways, but generally speaking, the measurables don't say what BLM the org wants them to say. More whites are killed by police than blacks every year and there is roughly an equal number of those killings under suspicion of "brutality" or "negligence" for blacks and whites. Those that make the case that blacks are killed "more often" base that claim on the absolute number of blacks killed by police representing a greater percentage of the black population than is the case with whites. If you control for covariables like socioeconomic status, that discrepancy goes away.

    Still, EVERY citizen that is abused or improperly killed by police deserves justice and reform. We live in an age (perhaps all of human existence was this way) where perception is reality. The perception that the US is some combination of structurally racist and that minorities have something to fear from police IS a problem that needs to be addressed. That perception robs those American's who hold it of much of the benefits of our economic and political system.

    At the end of the day, I never want Marxists trying to solve my social problems as it's a good bet too many people will end up dead, imprisoned, and spending 12 hours trying to buy grocery basics. Actual justice does not exist in that soulless philosophy and the 20th century has a pile of 100,000,000 bodies to prove it.

    Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
    ​He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that... He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
    Originally posted by Robert “Hoot” Gibson
    No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.
    RIP: Charlie Munger​

    Comment

    • Matt Dillon
      Administrator
      • Oct 2014
      • 49624

      #62
      First of all, let me say I've never met or talked to either coach Cal or coach Stoops. If I knew them as well as I know my best friends, I would probably know for sure what their motivation is. Let me emphasize that I have no doubts about their concern or sincerity. The poster, who started this thread, is upset because coach Cal came out in support of BLM. One thing is certain, if 90 some percent of your team is a certain race, and you don't show your support for that race, you won't be very successful for very long.
      Philippians 4:11-4:13

      Comment

      • 40bill
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2014
        • 8451

        #63
        Originally posted by Matt Dillon
        First of all, let me say I've never met or talked to either coach Cal or coach Stoops. If I knew them as well as I know my best friends, I would probably know for sure what their motivation is. Let me emphasize that I have no doubts about their concern or sincerity. The poster, who started this thread, is upset because coach Cal came out in support of BLM. One thing is certain, if 90 some percent of your team is a certain race, and you don't show your support for that race, you won't be very successful for very long.
        Quite true. The coaches (the good ones) get to know these kids and their families. I really believe from their actions when Stoops and Calipari say they wanna take care of their players, they mean it.

        Comment

        • SCBlu
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2014
          • 1016

          #64
          Originally posted by Matt Dillon
          First of all, let me say I've never met or talked to either coach Cal or coach Stoops. If I knew them as well as I know my best friends, I would probably know for sure what their motivation is. Let me emphasize that I have no doubts about their concern or sincerity. The poster, who started this thread, is upset because coach Cal came out in support of BLM. One thing is certain, if 90 some percent of your team is a certain race, and you don't show your support for that race, you won't be very successful for very long.
          BINGO! IMHO, it comes down to Character vs. Convenience. I've supported The Cats through thick & thin since "63. But if I see our administration (including team coaches) condoning athletes knelling during the National Anthem or supporting the blm movement, I will give it all up and maybe turn to Australian Sand Soccer.

          Comment

          • justford
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2014
            • 4669

            #65
            Originally posted by SCBlu

            BINGO! IMHO, it comes down to Character vs. Convenience. I've supported The Cats through thick & thin since "63. But if I see our administration (including team coaches) condoning athletes knelling during the National Anthem or supporting the blm movement, I will give it all up and maybe turn to Australian Sand Soccer.
            I would say read up on the rules for Australian Sand Soccer mate lol

            Comment

            • Joneslab
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2014
              • 39604

              #66
              Originally posted by Spiritof96
              It is inarguable that BLM the organization has its philosophical roots in Marxism.
              This has been a charge against black organization for seventy years in this country. It has absolutely zero basis in anything but white paranoia.

              Comment

              • Joneslab
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2014
                • 39604

                #67
                Originally posted by SCBlu
                Not sure BLM even "started in a good place." I cannot support an organization that professes "Pigs in a blanket, Fry'em like bacon", and "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? NOW" . Those chants occurred 4 years ago and to my knowledge, the BLM organization has never disavowed those horrible chants. Add the undisputed fact that BLM's Mission Statement includes wanting to "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure," and it's incredulous to me that anyone would support such an organization.
                Do Black lives matter? Absolutely. Do I want our police to die, or our nuclear family structure disrupted? Absolutely not!
                I would argue that most folks at the beginning weren't chanting about "dead cops." My wife went to a BLM protest back in April. She went because many white youth group leaders in the Catholic church were going with their families. They tied BLM in to human dignity, the same as an abortion debate. At the protest she went to there was nothing said about dead cops. It was entirely peaceful.

                I think the violent rhetoric has crept in as the protests have gone on--and honestly it doesn't take a lot to pervert the message. Just takes a handful of crazies to do it. For instance, we had a drug store near our neighborhood broken into (more than once) right when the protests in Louisville began. I can't tell you the number of (white) people I've spoken to who have said, "It's those protests." I think it's more than likely just a small group of troublemakers who have used the protests as cover.

                Also, I'm curious about the part in bold above. As I said above about the other post, the nuclear family thing sounds like Fox News paranoia more than anything. I would be leery about conservative news anchors trying to scare your family more than anything there.

                Comment

                • Spiritof96
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2014
                  • 13503

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Will Lavender

                  This has been a charge against black organization for seventy years in this country. It has absolutely zero basis in anything but white paranoia.
                  While this may be true in the larger historical sense it is factually incorrect as it relates to this particular group. I'm sorry you don't want to take the time to look it up.
                  Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
                  ​He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that... He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
                  Originally posted by Robert “Hoot” Gibson
                  No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.
                  RIP: Charlie Munger​

                  Comment

                  • Joneslab
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2014
                    • 39604

                    #69
                    Originally posted by SCBlu

                    BINGO! IMHO, it comes down to Character vs. Convenience.
                    This suggests Cal doesn't really believe what he says he does and that he's just doing it because he's afraid of stepping out of line or something.

                    As another poster said above, the social justice/race component has been a major part of Cal's platform for years. He didn't just start talking about the black experience in sports recently. I saw him talking about more than a decade ago.

                    So no, I don't think he's just doing this because it's convenient. Many of these coaches have radically different takes on this than your average Kentucky fan. If you look up into the stands at Rupp Arena sometimes, it's about 95% white. Cal and most high-level college basketball coaches are dealing with black players and their families all the time. They are going to have radically different ideas about what's important to those people given their experience with blacks in America.

                    Comment

                    • Joneslab
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 39604

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Spiritof96

                      While this may be true in the larger historical sense it is factually incorrect as it relates to this particular group. I'm sorry you don't want to take the time to look it up.
                      Ah, once again only Spirit has the facts. I'll watch a 75-minute YouTube video from a black conservative to educate myself.

                      Comment

                      • Spiritof96
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2014
                        • 13503

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Will Lavender

                        Ah, once again only Spirit has the facts. I'll watch a 75-minute YouTube video from a black conservative to educate myself.
                        A quick summary of the social justice movement and identity politics, in general, expose it as a pivot on Marxist ideas of class to that of "Identity". With all of the same mechanics, operating principles, and objectives. Most of the thinkers who developed the constructs that these groups are founded on are Marxist to the core. Critical theory is SPECIFICALLY a product of the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School.

                        But more straight forward than that... (Since your google machine is broken)

                        Originally posted by BLM Cofounder Patrisse Cullors
                        "We do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia, in particular, are trained organizers; we are trained Marxists. We are superversed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think what we really try to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many Black folks."
                        Prior to it coming to public notice co-founder Alicia Garza about the author page stated:

                        describes herself as a ******************** social justice activist and Marxist.

                        So the "movement" is bigger than it's co-founders for sure, but their talking points are absolutely couched in the tenants of "Critical theory". They push the modern evolution of Marxist ideas about "group identity" and collectivism. They nibble around the edges at wealth redistribution and so on.

                        So for those scoring at home, in Will world, if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, embraces the core ideological tenets of a duck, self identifies as a duck, but has a noble-sounding goal, it's a benevolent cow.
                        Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
                        ​He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that... He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
                        Originally posted by Robert “Hoot” Gibson
                        No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.
                        RIP: Charlie Munger​

                        Comment

                        • Joneslab
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 39604

                          #72
                          ^ I doubt many folks who are protesting for social justice know what any of that means.

                          I'm sure there are people in the movement who want to break the old way and reinvent it with the new, and that extends to economic ideas and the nuclear family the other poster mentioned and so on.

                          I really don't think that's a common tenet of the movement for many. I think it's way more earthy and immediate and has to do with their everyday lives and their families.

                          We can academic-ize virtually anything and make it sound scary as hell.

                          Comment

                          • Spiritof96
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2014
                            • 13503

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Will Lavender
                            ^ I doubt many folks who are protesting for social justice know what any of that means.
                            And what is that term we have for people who are fundamentally ignorant about movements they join and ideas they uncritically accept repeat? (while remaining disinterested in verifiable facts)

                            Useful...

                            Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
                            ​He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that... He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
                            Originally posted by Robert “Hoot” Gibson
                            No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.
                            RIP: Charlie Munger​

                            Comment

                            • Joneslab
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 39604

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Spiritof96

                              And what is that term we have for people who are fundamentally ignorant about movements they join and ideas they uncritically accept repeat? (while remaining disinterested in verifiable facts)

                              Useful...
                              No, I just don't think most people who join those groups want to read academic treatises or high-minded explainers for why they joined said group.

                              I mean, I saw a feature article in Harper's Magazine a few years ago written by a University of Chicago professor talking about why the underpinnings of the Tea Party movement were colonialist and racist.

                              I'm sure that wouldn't be received well by you or many in this thread. You'd probably roll your eyes.

                              A lot of academia is like that. It's reductive and doesn't get at why people make the decisions they do. I admittedly haven't talked to a ton of pro-BLM people but I really don't think they're by and large up on Marxist theory and how their movement is ruining the nuclear family or anything. I'd like to think they would shrug in bafflement at that.

                              Or, as I said above, they would prescribe it to an age-old trick white people have used about black uprisings in this country. It's Marxist, it's dangerous, it's radical. Invisible Man is a good read on that sort of thing.

                              Comment

                              • Spiritof96
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2014
                                • 13503

                                #75
                                For those interested in a rational and fair discussion of the problem with BLM:



                                Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
                                ​He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that... He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
                                Originally posted by Robert “Hoot” Gibson
                                No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.
                                RIP: Charlie Munger​

                                Comment

                                 

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