Imaginary Game #2: 1984 vs. 2003

[Joneslab]

So here we have two non-champions and teams that put up really disappointing games in their last contest of the season.

The '84 team of course is the one that lost to Georgetown in the NCAA Tournament after an abysmal second-half shooting performance. The '03 team is the one that turned it on defensively in the second half of the year, and won 26 straight games before being ousted by Dwyane Wade and Marquette in the tournament.

'03 came at you with defense and grit. '84 had extraordinary size across the front line. (Oddly, 2003 blocked more shots.)

In fact as you look at the stats for both teams, a lot about '84 jumps out to you as being pretty vanilla. But they did have the twin towers and Kenny Walker, which counts for a lot. Their two wins against Louisville that year including in the NCAA Tournament also gives you an indication of how tough they had to have been.

I've always thought '03 was an underrated team in the history of UK basketball because of the Marquette game, and as I look at the statistical comparisons I am even more firm in a thought I had when I first came up with the game: '03 wins this and it may be lopsided.

1984 Kentucky 64
2003 Kentucky 72

[Dwight Schrute]

2003 is my biggest what-if team of my life. When that team was playing well, they were unbeatable. The first half in the game against #1 Florida in Rupp was easily the best basketball I've ever seen. What struck me about that team is how mediocre they were to start out. They lost an exhibition game and some early season games before finally pulling it together against Vandy on the road.

I was 1 year old in 1984 but nothing about that team has ever stood out in my mind as one I should care about. Most of the 80's are that way with me.

I think 2003 wins that game pretty handily. 72-59 or something like that.

[JFCats22]

2003 was my senior year at UK and I was 1000% convinced we were at least going to the Final Four. I love AND hate this team for what happened that season.

84 was a really good team but I think 2003 would beat them by 10-12.

[40bill]

84 was a fine team, and the shooting against Georgetown screamed "fix"....but it was likely as much Quicksand.
overbalanced on the front line, weaker in the backcourt.

I don't know if a healthy Bogans could have slowed Dwayne Wade that night. He elevated his game even above amazing standards he had all year.

BUT....at their best, 2003 was a machine. From the time Tubby Smith threw off his coat and absolutely EXPLODED after the Vandy kid made the throat cut gesture to the UK bench until the Wade show, they we're as fine as team to watch as I had seen.
84, despite the size, the talent....always seemed to be a bit less than a total team.
2003...with no arguments from me.

[Dwight Schrute]

That 03 team clearly changed Tubby's mindset - he seemingly ceased recruiting standout players and instead started recruiting solid players who'd play D. That's a fine strategy until you start settling for a team full of projects.

[Jload]

Always though 03 would have won it if Bogans hadn't sprained his ankle late in tourney. I like them in this one. The 84 team was pretty weak at the guard position IMO, plus not sure I will ever get over the Georgetown game Joe B tried to shoot himself after the game but he missed

[Joneslab]

The '03 team had what a lot of UK teams since have lacked: interior passing.

Hayes and Daniels were sort of masters at finding each other in close quarters. They were known for their defense but they would kill people with that high/low game.

[KevinHall]

I will be the contrarian here and take the 84 team in a close game. I will say 71-69. They had overwhelming size inside. The 03 team would have had a hard time dealing with that. Most people forget too that Kenny Walker was one of the best athletes UK has ever had. He could do it all. He was somewhat suspect shooting outside but I think Joe B held him back in that regard. Even though Bowie was coming off injuries he was still a very intimidating prescence inside/ They also had good enough shooting. Guard play was good with Beal being really fast and James Blackmon was very quick too. It was shame what happened to this team in the Final Four. If they could have survived that meltdown in the 2nd half I have no doubt they would have beaten Houston in the Finals and then this team would have been regarded as one of the best in UK history.
Also I still don't think that 03 team would have beaten Marquette that day even with a healthy Bogans. Wade was just too good and also they a big guy inside that had a career day. Just too much to overcome on that day.

[catfaninin]

I will be the contrarian here and take the 84 team in a close game. I will say 71-69. They had overwhelming size inside. The 03 team would have had a hard time dealing with that. Most people forget too that Kenny Walker was one of the best athletes UK has ever had. He could do it all. He was somewhat suspect shooting outside but I think Joe B held him back in that regard. Even though Bowie was coming off injuries he was still a very intimidating prescence inside/ They also had good enough shooting. Guard play was good with Beal being really fast and James Blackmon was very quick too. It was shame what happened to this team in the Final Four. If they could have survived that meltdown in the 2nd half I have no doubt they would have beaten Houston in the Finals and then this team would have been regarded as one of the best in UK history.
Also I still don't think that 03 team would have beaten Marquette that day even with a healthy Bogans. Wade was just too good and also they a big guy inside that had a career day. Just too much to overcome on that day.

I agree. That was a really good team. But I do think Hall hurt that team with his insistence of playing Roger Harden so much instead of Beal. Beal is never mentioned in the list of great UK poing guards but he could really play. I think Walker doesn't get nearly enough credit for how good he really was. Master could shoot with anyone but with the strength inside and no 3 point line he didn't get the chance to show it. Melvin Turpin was nearly unstoppable. And Winston Bennett coming off the bench. It's a shame that team lost their mind in the Georgetown game and is remembered more for that rather than how good they really were.

[KevinHall]

I agree. That was a really good team. But I do think Hall hurt that team with his insistence of playing Roger Harden so much instead of Beal. Beal is never mentioned in the list of great UK poing guards but he could really play. I think Walker doesn't get nearly enough credit for how good he really was. Master could shoot with anyone but with the strength inside and no 3 point line he didn't get the chance to show it. Melvin Turpin was nearly unstoppable. And Winston Bennett coming off the bench. It's a shame that team lost their mind in the Georgetown game and is remembered more for that rather than how good they really were.

Beal was hurt part of that season. So that was some of the reason Harden played more. I forgot abut Master being on that team. Master could shoot as well as anyone in UK history. I'm sure if the 3 point line was around back then he would have been one of UK's all time leaders if not the leader. He was a terrific shooter by his sophmore year.

[JFCats22]

I don't think 1984 has a chance against 2003.

This is a pretty cool website where you can do game simulations. https://www.whatifsports.com/ncaab

I did 84 vs. 03 20 times and 2003 won 18 of them by an average margin of 14 points

I also did 1978 vs. 2010 20 times and it was split 10-10

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't think 1984 has a chance against 2003.

This is a pretty cool website where you can do game simulations. https://www.whatifsports.com/ncaab

I did 84 vs. 03 20 times and 2003 won 18 of them by an average margin of 14 points

I also did 1978 vs. 2010 20 times and it was split 10-10

I forgot this website was still around - awesome.

[40bill]

It IS a super neat site, and thanks for reminding!!!!!

Just one downer....since it IS set to historical stats, I found that teams pre-3 point rule have an extremely low 3 point shot percentage....a couple games I put in with the 78 team and the 75 team (only blemish on Indiana's two year undefeated run) had those teams with either one or no three point attempts the whole game.....and with guys like Grevey, Macy, Claytor and Shidler, I would guarantee at least more attempts than that
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just really hard to compare realistically teams playing with different scoring guidelines.

[Joneslab]

There's a YouTube video of that '75 win against Indiana.

I watched the whole thing and one thing that struck me: how fast '75 was. Larry Johnson (I might be wrong, but I think it was him) was a friggin' blur.

This is why I say that these freaky good teams could sometimes override the athleticism issues against today's teams. It would take the best of the best to do it, because now you see athletes all over the court. But once the game integrated, those great teams had some outliers who could hold their own today.

[40bill]

Lol.....Larry always looked like each dribble was going thru the floor, he dribbled so hard. The next season as Lee, Givens, Phillips were sophs, Larry hit a last second shot against Providence in the NIT to go against Lee Rose's UNC-Charlotte in the final led by the great named Cedric "cornbread" Maxwell.
that team caught fire after Robey went down with a knee injury....I saw them play twice at Memorial....the sound was so loud from the students and the crowd you could feel it in your chest, and had trouble hearing for two days.
Team was so undermanned Derrick Ramsey dressed for the JV and suited for varsity two games.

Memorial was an echo chamber and could be just as intimidating as Rupp.