The Good, The Bad, The Ugly: Alabama Edition

[Joneslab]

I agree with all your take on the game today, except the above. IF, we could ever sit down together and watch the replay, using slow motion and frame by frame, I truly think you would change your consistent thoughts on Officials. Of course if the above is how you like to look at a game, it will never happen. These officials today certainly were not perfect, but they also weren't as bad as you describe either.

Hey Lighthouse, thanks for the offer...but I generally want to watch the games and not the refs. This is my frustration with games that are called like this: you end up watching the refs.

You have a different perspective and I respect that. I don't want to watch officiating. It's totally uninteresting to me. I want to watch guys playing basketball.

Thankfully, we haven't had a bunch of games like yesterday's. We had the two in a row with Vandy and Mississippi St., but yesterday was the first foul-choked game since.

I just think they get into a habit of calling everything early on and they stick to it. Some crews clearly don't do that even when they could. I also think as someone else pointed out that they try to even things up. When you have celebrity coaches like Cal and Coach K over there screaming at them, it's easy to see why officials feel a need to try and even the game out. That happens a lot in games like yesterday's, and it just becomes a mess.

But as I said it doesn't happen a whole lot, thank goodness.

[CATHYnKY]

Thanks DVZ! Great to see you, and everyone else again! I have many old, true friends in here.

But I have to say, it still feels weird that when I come here, I only show 34 posts to my credit. haha

Hey there Curly. Love your picture!!! See you soon

[Lighthouse]

Hey Lighthouse, thanks for the offer...but I generally want to watch the games and not the refs. This is my frustration with games that are called like this: you end up watching the refs.

You have a different perspective and I respect that. I don't want to watch officiating. It's totally uninteresting to me. I want to watch guys playing basketball.

Thankfully, we haven't had a bunch of games like yesterday's. We had the two in a row with Vandy and Mississippi St., but yesterday was the first foul-choked game since.

I just think they get into a habit of calling everything early on and they stick to it. Some crews clearly don't do that even when they could. I also think as someone else pointed out that they try to even things up. When you have celebrity coaches like Cal and Coach K over there screaming at them, it's easy to see why officials feel a need to try and even the game out. That happens a lot in games like yesterday's, and it just becomes a mess.

But as I said it doesn't happen a whole lot, thank goodness.

And I respect your understanding on officiating. If I could convince fans of one thing about officials, it would be they are the same official every game but the players dictate what's called. I had games where hardly any fouls were called, while in others we were in the bonus early, but I was the same official in both games. And I know this is a hard one to take, but "make up" calls do not exist, unless fans have an itch to label them so.

And it's according to which side you're on. For example, yesterday I was grading two officials in a JV game between PRP and Holy Cross. I had PRP parents on my right, and a Holy Cross Dad on my left, and you would have laughed as they both complained about a call or no call, and how they "helped" the officials. They both cared about the outcome of the game, and the officials couldn't have cared less about who won, and SEC officials don't either.

My desire, whether is the Q & A's or an evaluation, is for Kentucky Fans to enjoy the games and not worry about what the officials do or not do, especially when most have no idea what they're gripping about.

[George]

And I respect your understanding on officiating. If I could convince fans of one thing about officials, it would be they are the same official every game but the players dictate what's called. I had games where hardly any fouls were called, while in others we were in the bonus early, but I was the same official in both games. And I know this is a hard one to take, but "make up" calls do not exist, unless fans have an itch to label them so.

And it's according to which side you're on. For example, yesterday I was grading two officials in a JV game between PRP and Holy Cross. I had PRP parents on my right, and a Holy Cross Dad on my left, and you would have laughed as they both complained about a call or no call, and how they "helped" the officials. They both cared about the outcome of the game, and the officials couldn't have cared less about who won, and SEC officials don't either.

My desire, whether is the Q & A's or an evaluation, is for Kentucky Fans to enjoy the games and not worry about what the officials do or not do, especially when most have no idea what they're gripping about.

But Lighthouse, isn't it possible that you're only speaking for yourself here? Can anyone be certain that no official has ever been guilty of a make-up call?

[Joneslab]

Make-up calls absolutely happen.

The only question is about the frequency with which it happens. I would argue that it doesn't happen a whole lot but when the whistles start to pour in like they sometimes do, you begin to see situations where I think the officiating crew comes to either an individual decision or consensus that absolutely everything is going to be called. When they get deeper into the game and let a few things go, the coaches let them know about it because they've already set the paradigm for how they want to call early on, and now they're breaking their own rule. So they begin to eagle-eye one end of the court to try and balance the game. Whistles begat more whistles.

Alabama was called for arguably the worst call of that game yesterday. So it isn't like Kentucky gets all these calls. I would just rather not watch officials blow the whistle on literally everything because...well, it stinks if you're a spectator.

[Joneslab]

And as for fans having no idea what we're griping about, officiating isn't quantum physics. Basketball is a simple game with relatively few rules. There are absolutely times when I'll watch a game and react to a call, and then upon review it will be obvious that it's the right call. But generally you can kind of see that certain games are called with this idea that everything is going to be a whistle.

And these officials aren't infallible. Like everybody else on the court they make mistakes. But more than mistakes, my problem is the philosophy with which they go into certain games. My feeling is that almost every game if they wanted it to could have 45 or 50 fouls. But they won't call that many except in certain games, and in those games they let nothing go. It's a matter of inconsistency that you begin to see if you watch a lot of college basketball, and particularly if you get out of the SEC and then compare those games to SEC games.

[Lighthouse]

But Lighthouse, isn't it possible that you're only speaking for yourself here? Can anyone be certain that no official has ever been guilty of a make-up call?

No, but it's very rare.

[catfaninin]

Hey Lighthouse, thanks for the offer...but I generally want to watch the games and not the refs. This is my frustration with games that are called like this: you end up watching the refs.

You have a different perspective and I respect that. I don't want to watch officiating. It's totally uninteresting to me. I want to watch guys playing basketball.

Thankfully, we haven't had a bunch of games like yesterday's. We had the two in a row with Vandy and Mississippi St., but yesterday was the first foul-choked game since.

I just think they get into a habit of calling everything early on and they stick to it. Some crews clearly don't do that even when they could. I also think as someone else pointed out that they try to even things up. When you have celebrity coaches like Cal and Coach K over there screaming at them, it's easy to see why officials feel a need to try and even the game out. That happens a lot in games like yesterday's, and it just becomes a mess.

But as I said it doesn't happen a whole lot, thank goodness.

I think you have the totally wrong perception of what is being suggested. I did go and was part of the review for the Miss. St. game. It's not about watching the refs. We watched a basketball game. Only when there was something questionable was there really any focus on the refs. And really the focus then became looking at the particular play and understanding what was called and why it was called. I think there were maybe 6-8 calls that after reviewing we could still not understand. Just to make a guesstimate I would say 90% give or take of the calls in that game were made correctly. And that is one of the games you reference as being so poorly called.

[Lighthouse]

And as for fans having no idea what we're griping about, officiating isn't quantum physics. Basketball is a simple game with relatively few rules. There are absolutely times when I'll watch a game and react to a call, and then upon review it will be obvious that it's the right call. But generally you can kind of see that certain games are called with this idea that everything is going to be a whistle.

And these officials aren't infallible. Like everybody else on the court they make mistakes. But more than mistakes, my problem is the philosophy with which they go into certain games. My feeling is that almost every game if they wanted it to could have 45 or 50 fouls. But they won't call that many except in certain games, and in those games they let nothing go. It's a matter of inconsistency that you begin to see if you watch a lot of college basketball, and particularly if you get out of the SEC and then compare those games to SEC games.

Sure they make mistakes, and are not infallible because they're human. What's this philosophy? Have you sit in on a pre-game and actually heard it discussed, or are you assuming it happens? I've sit in on a bunch, and I can tell you it doesn't happen. I can see you're sold on your analysis and choose not to venture from it, and that's OK. We will agree with the inconsistency part to a point, and when I see it, and do a review, I report it. I apologize for interrupting this thread. I totally enjoy your G,B&U thoughts. Keep them coming. GO CATS!!

[Joneslab]

I think you have the totally wrong perception of what is being suggested. I did go and was part of the review for the Miss. St. game. It's not about watching the refs. We watched a basketball game. Only when there was something questionable was there really any focus on the refs. And really the focus then became looking at the particular play and understanding what was called and why it was called. I think there were maybe 6-8 calls that after reviewing we could still not understand. Just to make a guesstimate I would say 90% give or take of the calls in that game were made correctly. And that is one of the games you reference as being so poorly called.

It's just a part of the game that I have very little interest in until it appears in the game, like yesterday. And as I've said I don't think it creeps into the game very much during a season. I can only think of one UK game I've ever watched where the officials literally lost the game for Kentucky--St. John's in the early 2000s--and the official wrote a letter to Tubby Smith apologizing for it.

And I maintain that the Mississippi St. game was called poorly only because the officials were keyed in on so much so often. In a game like that there might be three or four really bad calls--maybe less--but it's not about the bad calls as it is how much they want to call. Many of those calls may be technically correct, but do we need "nickle dimers" on every position? No, IMO. (IIRC the worst call in the game went Kentucky's way.)

So it isn't wrong calls so much as you'll get these crews sometimes that just get on the whistles and stay on them. As I said, I truly believe that every basketball game at any level could be called in such a way where 45 fouls are called. Most are not called that way.

And to Lighthouse's point about whether they get together beforehand to discuss it...no, I don't think so. I believe a rash of whistles early sets the precedent for how they're going to call a game all the way through, and you get situations where virtually everything is a whistle simply because of the way the game begins to be called in the first couple of minutes.

[Joneslab]

And lest anyone think I'm some ref-hating conspiracy theorist, around the time of the Mississippi St. game a lot of people were talking about SEC officials' penchant for calling fouls. An ESPN writer even did a study about it.

I mention the officials probably about four times a year on these boards and I've been posting since Tubby Smith was hired. So it's not a thing I bring up very much at all. Three times this year I've felt that it was worthy of discussion after the game.

[catfaninin]

And lest anyone think I'm some ref-hating conspiracy theorist, around the time of the Mississippi St. game a lot of people were talking about SEC officials' penchant for calling fouls. An ESPN writer even did a study about it.

I mention the officials probably about four times a year on these boards and I've been posting since Tubby Smith was hired. So it's not a thing I bring up very much at all. Three times this year I've felt that it was worthy of discussion after the game.

I am just now getting to see yesterdays game. But in listening to Mike and Tom I only heard a couple of times they had much problem with anything that was called.

[Westtncat]

And lest anyone think I'm some ref-hating conspiracy theorist, around the time of the Mississippi St. game a lot of people were talking about SEC officials' penchant for calling fouls. An ESPN writer even did a study about it.

I mention the officials probably about four times a year on these boards and I've been posting since Tubby Smith was hired. So it's not a thing I bring up very much at all. Three times this year I've felt that it was worthy of discussion after the game.

I can tell when the refs are too involved. A couple of times this year I have complained about the refs after victory's. So I know I wasn't just being a sore loser. There was a stretch of about 3 or 4 games this year when the foul calling became ridiculous.

[Joneslab]

I am just now getting to see yesterdays game. But in listening to Mike and Tom I only heard a couple of times they had much problem with anything that was called.

Tom and Mike from my experience don't do a whole lot of barking at the refs. Leach almost never. Pratt occasionally.

But again, rather than "Man, that was a terrible call," I simply think 43 fouls or whatever were called was overkill for the way the game was played.

Because let's face it: a lot of things could be whistled, especially under these new rules. So much could be a foul if the officials got a hair. But when you watch some of these games outside of this league, they often have more flow.

[Lighthouse]

And please don't anybody read into what I discussed with Will, as inferring he berates the Officials all the time. That just isn't the case at all. He is one dedicated Kentucky Fan, and I appreciate his passion for College Basketball. That is one thing we have in common.