Maybe Barnhart will give Stoops another raise and contract extension

[Dwight Schrute]

Your post is accurate, even though you did not intend for it to be.

Do you know where those coaches were at the times we are discussing?

Which, if any, do you think were in a position, at the time, from which they would not have been interested in being the head coach at Kentucky?

I don't think any of those were interested, unless you know something I don't. If they were, they'd be coaching us right now and you'd be complaining about them instead.

I'm not going ad hominem, I'm saying you guys that are all over Barnhart (criticism is deserved) don't have realistic solutions. Yeah, let's hire Brian Kelley or Sonny Dykes or Gus Malzahn.

[Old School]

I don't think any of those were interested, unless you know something I don't. If they were, they'd be coaching us right now and you'd be complaining about them instead.

I'm not going ad hominem, I'm saying you guys that are all over Barnhart (criticism is deserved) don't have realistic solutions. Yeah, let's hire Brian Kelley or Sonny Dykes or Gus Malzahn.

Right. You have reason to think none of those 50 coaches, all of whom were head coaches in minor conferences, coordinators, position coaches or unemployed at the time, would've been interested in the UK head coaching job and the millions of dollars that went with it. Not one of them.

Right.

Brian Kelly was the coach at Cincinnati at the time. Gus Malzahn was the OC at Auburn. Sonny Dykes was the OC at Arizona when Joker was hired, and the HC at Louisiana Tech when Stoops was hired. Look up where any of the others were. Yes, UK should be able to hire away from positions like that, and from where the other 47 listed were, also - especially if they are going to throw away as much money as they are throwing away on Stoops.

What's funny about this is that you asked if there were any coaches out there Barney could've hired instead. You got a big list of guys who were minor leaguers, coordinators, positions coaches or unemployed at the time, all guys Barney could've sought, all of whom would've taken a big step with the UK job, and all of whom have been winners as head coaches since then. Then you respond to that with "you guys...don't have realistic solutions." What's yours? Stick with Stoops and Barney?

Do you think Barney conducted a good search and identified the best candidate, or even someone in the top 50% of potential candidates, either time?

[catfaninin]

Right. You have reason to think none of those 50 coaches, all of whom were head coaches in minor conferences, coordinators, position coaches or unemployed at the time, would've been interested in the UK head coaching job and the millions of dollars that went with it. Not one of them.

Right.

Brian Kelly was the coach at Cincinnati at the time. Gus Malzahn was the OC at Auburn. Sonny Dykes was the OC at Arizona when Joker was hired, and the HC at Louisiana Tech when Stoops was hired. Look up where any of the others were. Yes, UK should be able to hire away from positions like that, and from where the other 47 listed were, also - especially if they are going to throw away as much money as they are throwing away on Stoops.

What's funny about this is that you asked if there were any coaches out there Barney could've hired instead. You got a big list of guys who were minor leaguers, coordinators, positions coaches or unemployed at the time, all guys Barney could've sought, all of whom would've taken a big step with the UK job, and all of whom have been winners as head coaches since then. Then you respond to that with "you guys...don't have realistic solutions." What's yours? Stick with Stoops and Barney?

Do you think Barney conducted a good search and identified the best candidate, or even someone in the top 50% of potential candidates, either time?

Just for the sake of curiosity where would Stoops have ranked on those lists? Surely the coordinator for one of the best defenses in football on a top 5 team would have been near the top.

If I remember at the time people were overjoyed with the hire. Obviously it has not worked out well. But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad or wrong hire. Often times things just don't work. Hell Bill Belichick was hired and fired by the lowly Cleveland Browns.

It's all guesswork if any of those listed would have taken the job and if their results would have been any different. If all decisions could be made using hindsight we would all look pretty darned smart.

[Dwight Schrute]

Right. You have reason to think none of those 50 coaches, all of whom were head coaches in minor conferences, coordinators, position coaches or unemployed at the time, would've been interested in the UK head coaching job and the millions of dollars that went with it. Not one of them.

Right.

Brian Kelly was the coach at Cincinnati at the time. Gus Malzahn was the OC at Auburn. Sonny Dykes was the OC at Arizona when Joker was hired, and the HC at Louisiana Tech when Stoops was hired. Look up where any of the others were. Yes, UK should be able to hire away from positions like that, and from where the other 47 listed were, also - especially if they are going to throw away as much money as they are throwing away on Stoops.

What's funny about this is that you asked if there were any coaches out there Barney could've hired instead. You got a big list of guys who were minor leaguers, coordinators, positions coaches or unemployed at the time, all guys Barney could've sought, all of whom would've taken a big step with the UK job, and all of whom have been winners as head coaches since then. Then you respond to that with "you guys...don't have realistic solutions." What's yours? Stick with Stoops and Barney?

Do you think Barney conducted a good search and identified the best candidate, or even someone in the top 50% of potential candidates, either time?

It's really easy to criticize actions when you have the benefit of hindsight. As Catfaninin stated above me, Stoops was the coordinator of one of the best defenses in America. We did get a hot coordinator and If I went back 4 years of posts, I'd probably find you praising the hire.

You mention Sonny Dykes - he currently has a 15-24 record at Cal. At Cal! The PAC 12! And you think he'd have been a smashing success at Kentucky in the SEC? Brian Kelly is now the coach at Notre Dame, and Butch Jones at Tennessee. Kentucky wasn't hiring those guys (my understanding is that Jones was a firm 'no' to coaching here). Gus Malzahn at Auburn - he wasn't coming here either. Kirby Smart was a no as well.

I never claimed to have the solutions, but I'm not going to bloviate from the iPad about it. I am a realist and know that at the time, a guy like Stoops was our best choice. Maybe he still is, I don't know.

[Joneslab]

The only reason "hindsight" can't be used to fireproof Barnhart against criticism is because he's made very similar mistakes with other coaches.

Stoops can't be seen in a vacuum. With Barnhart it's like this pancake stack of awfulness--one laid on top of another.

With Gillispie people said the same thing. (With Joker, too, you had a bunch of people claiming that the coach-in-waiting was actually a good move.) And just like with Stoops, they were right. Gillispie at the time looked like a very good hire, but that doesn't absolve Barnhart that he turned out not to be.

You have to see the gestalt IMO. Every hire and not just this one.

[KCKUKFan]

I don't think any of those were interested, unless you know something I don't. If they were, they'd be coaching us right now and you'd be complaining about them instead.

I'm not going ad hominem, I'm saying you guys that are all over Barnhart (criticism is deserved) don't have realistic solutions. Yeah, let's hire Brian Kelley or Sonny Dykes or Gus Malzahn.

I never said hiring Stoops was a bad idea at the time. Actually, it sounded pretty damn sweet.

With that said, I will pile on Barnhart for keeping Joker a year too long (to say nothing of the "coach in waiting" nonsense, which I always felt was short-sighted), hiring Billy Gillsipie, and giving Stoops this ridiculous extension that is essentially doing a "Deliverance" on our football program. Let's not even talk about his condescending comments and attitude towards the fan base on a number of occasions.

And Bobby Petrino was a realistic solution. He wanted to come here. You can argue whatever you want about the moral dilemma in that situation, but the fact is that he would've come here and we would be winning football games at this moment. So, there was a realistic solution. Our AD just wouldn't hear of it. Same way he wouldn't think of Calipari until his job was essentially on the line.

It's essentially been one poor decision for our money-makers after another, which overshadows the good things that he's done for the campus, community, and facilities.

[Dwight Schrute]

The only reason "hindsight" can't be used to fireproof Barnhart against criticism is because he's made very similar mistakes with other coaches.

Stoops can't be seen in a vacuum. With Barnhart it's like this pancake stack of awfulness--one laid on top of another.

With Gillispie people said the same thing. (With Joker, too, you had a bunch of people claiming that the coach-in-waiting was actually a good move.) And just like with Stoops, they were right. Gillispie at the time looked like a very good hire, but that doesn't absolve Barnhart that he turned out not to be.

You have to see the gestalt IMO. Every hire and not just this one.

I'm not suggesting that it does, nor that Barnhart doesn't deserve the responsibility. It just annoys me to no end when the first reaction is "FARRR BARNFART!" Especially when that suggestion is accompanied by delusion that Kentucky is a program where an up and coming coach wants to come. I have to assume if we could've hired Brian Kelly or Kirby Smart, we would've.

[Old School]

Just for the sake of curiosity where would Stoops have ranked on those lists? Surely the coordinator for one of the best defenses in football on a top 5 team would have been near the top.

If I remember at the time people were overjoyed with the hire. Obviously it has not worked out well. But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad or wrong hire. Often times things just don't work. Hell Bill Belichick was hired and fired by the lowly Cleveland Browns.

It's all guesswork if any of those listed would have taken the job and if their results would have been any different. If all decisions could be made using hindsight we would all look pretty darned smart.

Not so high. A lot of good coordinators cannot succeed as head coaches: Norm Chow, Charlie Weis, Lane Kiffin, etc. A good AD doesn't just look for someone who was a coordinator on a team that did well, stop at that, and hire the guy. Yes, fans were happy about the hire...but they're not the ones paid to get it right.

Decisions aren't made with hindsight, but they're evaluated with hindsight. One someone like Barney makes so many bad decisions, someone else should be in their job.

[Old School]

It's really easy to criticize actions when you have the benefit of hindsight. As Catfaninin stated above me, Stoops was the coordinator of one of the best defenses in America. We did get a hot coordinator and If I went back 4 years of posts, I'd probably find you praising the hire.

You mention Sonny Dykes - he currently has a 15-24 record at Cal. At Cal! The PAC 12! And you think he'd have been a smashing success at Kentucky in the SEC? Brian Kelly is now the coach at Notre Dame, and Butch Jones at Tennessee. Kentucky wasn't hiring those guys (my understanding is that Jones was a firm 'no' to coaching here). Gus Malzahn at Auburn - he wasn't coming here either. Kirby Smart was a no as well.

I never claimed to have the solutions, but I'm not going to bloviate from the iPad about it. I am a realist and know that at the time, a guy like Stoops was our best choice. Maybe he still is, I don't know.

For Barney or anyone else, you judge the job they do in hindsight. UK's AD or anyone else making decisions is expected to exercise foresight and to make good decisions. If they can't do that, you find someone else who can.

As mentioned above, many good coordinators are incapable of being good head coaches.

I wish those posts were there. Your search would be futile. I wasn't high on the hire and I wasn't down on it.

Sonny Dykes took over an awful 3-9 team. Here's what he has done:

1-10 2013
5-7 2014
8-5 2015

You wouldn't like that at UK? You don't think that's improvement?

Kelly and Jones were hired a year after UK should've jettisoned Joker and hired his replacement.

Why on earth would Malzahn go to Arkansas State, but not UK?

"Stoops was our best choice"? So, you looked at everyone who was available, analyzed them, and determined that Stoops was the best of the bunch? No wonder you take issue whenever someone criticizes Barney.

[Old School]

I'm not suggesting that it does, nor that Barnhart doesn't deserve the responsibility. It just annoys me to no end when the first reaction is "FARRR BARNFART!"

That wasn't anyone's first reaction. It's been 14 years. He hired Gillispie. He hired Joker. He hired Stoops. He has consistently done a poor job and botched major hires. He's in over his head.

Do you think Barney should be retained?

[Matt Dillon]

I never said hiring Stoops was a bad idea at the time. Actually, it sounded pretty damn sweet.

With that said, I will pile on Barnhart for keeping Joker a year too long (to say nothing of the "coach in waiting" nonsense, which I always felt was short-sighted), hiring Billy Gillsipie, and giving Stoops this ridiculous extension that is essentially doing a "Deliverance" on our football program. Let's not even talk about his condescending comments and attitude towards the fan base on a number of occasions.

And Bobby Petrino was a realistic solution. He wanted to come here. You can argue whatever you want about the moral dilemma in that situation, but the fact is that he would've come here and we would be winning football games at this moment. So, there was a realistic solution. Our AD just wouldn't hear of it. Same way he wouldn't think of Calipari until his job was essentially on the line.

It's essentially been one poor decision for our money-makers after another, which overshadows the good things that he's done for the campus, community, and facilities.

I agree totally.

[catfaninin]

Not so high. A lot of good coordinators cannot succeed as head coaches: Norm Chow, Charlie Weis, Lane Kiffin, etc. A good AD doesn't just look for someone who was a coordinator on a team that did well, stop at that, and hire the guy. Yes, fans were happy about the hire...but they're not the ones paid to get it right.

Decisions aren't made with hindsight, but they're evaluated with hindsight. One someone like Barney makes so many bad decisions, someone else should be in their job.

And Stoops would have not been high on the list why? Because 4 years later we can see that he hasn't won at a school with very little football tradition playing in the best conference in the country? That's hindsight

By the way I'm not defending Barnhart. Phillips and Gillispie were obviously bad moves. But I'm not sold on Stoops being a bad hire. Bad results yes, bad hire no.

Looking at the list you gave I can imagine maybe 25% of those ever being interested in the job in the first place. And who knows even if one of them took the job would the results be much better?

With some of the names mentioned ie- Dykes, Kelly. Do you really think if they would have been hired here they would be having the same success? You can't base everything on what has happened since. So many other factors besides just record.

Point is that there is always a gamble involved. Win some lose some. Again hindsight. The guys doing the hiring don't get to see the future before they make a hire.

But if you do see into the future would you be interested in playing the stock market with me?

[Joneslab]

Yeah, you can bash Barnhart for a lot of things, but IMO hiring Stoops isn't one of them.

But I don't think it absolves Barnhart at all just that it "looked" like a good hire. I mentioned Gillispie, and Joker too--they're all in that boat.

That the hire looked good on paper doesn't forgive anything that's happened. You could make an argument that coach-in-waiting looked good on paper too. Seems to've worked out for Florida St.

But just because a thing looks good doesn't mean it will be. Barnhart has to be judged on what has happened, not what could have happened.

[Dwight Schrute]

For Barney or anyone else, you judge the job they do in hindsight. UK's AD or anyone else making decisions is expected to exercise foresight and to make good decisions. If they can't do that, you find someone else who can.

As mentioned above, many good coordinators are incapable of being good head coaches.

I wish those posts were there. Your search would be futile. I wasn't high on the hire and I wasn't down on it.

Sonny Dykes took over an awful 3-9 team. Here's what he has done:

1-10 2013
5-7 2014
8-5 2015

You wouldn't like that at UK? You don't think that's improvement?

Kelly and Jones were hired a year after UK should've jettisoned Joker and hired his replacement.

Why on earth would Malzahn go to Arkansas State, but not UK?

"Stoops was our best choice"? So, you looked at everyone who was available, analyzed them, and determined that Stoops was the best of the bunch? No wonder you take issue whenever someone criticizes Barney.

We didn't have an opening when Malzahn was at Arkansas State. Right or wrong, Barnhart wasn't going to fire a coach after 2 seasons. I don't object to you criticizing the guy - I don't know him, and he gets paid enough to deal with it. I hate the constant ********************ing with you people. You have no realism when it comes to Kentucky football. When you've had X many coaches over the years as we have, you begin to see maybe the problem isn't with the coaches and it goes far deeper. It reminds me of the saying "if you meet one person who's an asshole, they're an asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole." Kentucky Football is an asshole. I don't know why, but for all the money invested over the years, it hasn't amounted to jack.

[catfaninin]

Yeah, you can bash Barnhart for a lot of things, but IMO hiring Stoops isn't one of them.

But I don't think it absolves Barnhart at all just that it "looked" like a good hire. I mentioned Gillispie, and Joker too--they're all in that boat.

That the hire looked good on paper doesn't forgive anything that's happened. You could make an argument that coach-in-waiting looked good on paper too. Seems to've worked out for Florida St.

But just because a thing looks good doesn't mean it will be. Barnhart has to be judged on what has happened, not what could have happened.

Agreed that he has to be judged on everything. And there have undoubtedly been plenty of missteps. I imagine Rich Brooks played a big part in the Joker fiasco. And in the case of Gillispie he was the flavor of the week. That was a case of putting way too much stock in a couple of good years at A&M. But I thought, and still do think that the Stoops hire was really solid. Hasn't worked out well of course but I still have no problem with that one. I just really have a hard time seeing any coach coming here and being a consistent winner.